In this interview, Yusuf Ali (SAN) maintains that only death penalty can curb corruption among public officers.
Excerpts from Sun:
During the last conference of the Nigeria Bar association (NBA), President Muhammadu Buhari urged the lawyers not to defend corrupt politicians. What is your take on that?
No, what he stated was that lawyers should not use the practice of their profession to stifle or slow down the war against corruption. And for me, what I understood him to be saying is that lawyers should not do anything that will deliberately stop, delay or serve as an encouragement to those who are corrupt. That is, if somebody is brought to court, he or she should undergo his or her trial. Don’t start to take objections, file applications, and all those things. That is my own understanding of his statement because under the law, those who are charged to court have the right to be defended; otherwise, it will be jungle justice.
How then do you see the suggestion for setting up of special court made up of incorruptible judges for speedy trial of corrupt public officers?
I have never been a student or an advocate of special court. During the time of the military, special courts were set up for failed banks. By so doing, the money that should have been given to the judiciary to improve the condition of court environment was used to rent places and equipped them with modern gadgets. After the courts wound up, where are the gadgets? What I think they should do is to deploy electronic recording gadgets to courts to fast tract their proceedings. Besides, I don’t want us to send a signal that will condemn other judges when they have not been tried for anything. If you select a few judges and give them a special place, what you are saying is that the rest are corrupt. So, it may be counterproductive. Instead, courts should be automated for speedy delivery of justice. One of the things causing delay is writing proceedings in long hand. You can’t expect judiciary to delivery a 21st century service when judges are given 18th century equipment to work with.
In the renewed anti-graft war, how do you think judiciary can be sanitized?
More often than not, people raise all manners of allegations without concrete facts to back them up. Those who genuinely believe that somebody has compromised his position as a judge should be ready to say it all. But if you just base all these allegations on assumption, I don’t think it is good enough. The fight against corruption must be seen as a complex whole. The point of arrest and interrogation of an accused is as important as the time they are taken to court. If you do a wishy-washy investigation, even if you take the accused before his enemies on the bench, he will go scot-free. So, our security agencies must desist from newspaper trial. Lack of proper investigation is the seed of failure. After a thorough investigation, then cases should the given to those who are honest and competent to prosecute. If the person prosecuting is compromised, that’s the end of it. So, it is a long chain. Prosecution doesn’t start and end with the judiciary. It is like a relay race, batons are being changed from apprehension, investigation, prosecution, trial and witnesses. We should encourage institution of whistle blowers. Anywhere in the world, security agencies buy information. It is not everybody that wants to blow whistle without some inducements. Tackling corruption is not just about making arrest. Thorough investigation must be done. So, anti-corruption agencies must be strengthened in terms of manpower and so forth.
Then, what do you see to the idea of merger of some of these agencies?
I am indifferent. It may be necessary perhaps to save some cost in terms of overhead. If you look at the law that set up the ICPC and EFCC, they are supposed to do different things. ICPC is actually anti-corruption organization, EFCC is anti-money laundering. The professional background of chairmen of these agencies also matters. Judges are put at the helms of the ICPC and judges play by the rules. Policemen don’t really care. That is the difference. It is almost a common knowledge that Nigeria police use extra legal means to obtain confession from suspects. A judge will not do that.
But do you take cognizance of the fact that financial crime is difficult to tract?
But you don’t need to torture people to obtain confession. You only need to be properly trained on how to do your investigation. ICT experts are the people needed in such organizations not just policemen or ordinary investigators. For the London MET, there are people who have PhDs in investigations. Once you unearth solid facts and you confront a man with it, he won’t have any choice. What they do is forensic investigation. Here in Nigeria, CCTVs were installed in Abuja, but they are not working. I learnt the thing cost almost half a billion dollars and nobody is not raising any issue about it. These are things that would assist security agencies in tracking down criminals. Investigating corruption is not a tea party. Until we get proper forensic investigations, we won’t achieve much in corruption war. You can’t use police conventional method to do investigation; it won’t work.
Do you also share in the opinion that menace of corruption need to be dealt with in order to move the nation forward?
Already, the body language of the President has sent proper signals. But can he do it alone? He is not going to work with angels. I have always maintained that we cannot leave the issue of corruption in the hands of security agencies.
All of us must be involved. We must all buy into anti-corruption war; otherwise, there won’t be much progress. If there are no givers, there won’t be takers. So, the givers must desist from giving. All of us must make up our minds that we are not going to make corruption to thrive. Nigerians encourage corruption by our attitude, by what we say and what we do. We all like cutting corners. If your child doesn’t do well in JAMB, you want to push him in by all means and displace other people who are well qualified. That is corruption. It is not only when you take money that is corruption.
Is that the reason why there is skepticism in some quarters that the anti-corruption fight of the administration may not go far because of the people around the president?
The way the man is and with his determination, I think those who are around him will be weary, especially when one or two people are made a scapegoat. He must be prepared to exercise total political willpower to say no to corruption.
What role should lawyers play in the renewed anti-graft war?
One, lawyers must live by the rules of their profession. If we live by the ethic of our profession, lawyers would be in the vanguard of the war against corruption. We should not see ourselves as mere instrument in the hands of clients. We should see ourselves as having duties to the society. We must not use our profession as sabotage against corruption. It is legitimate for us to get briefs, to take cases from anybody but we must do it real professionally. And, of course, we must also be imbued with our own moral code. We must act as agents of stamping out corruption.
What does the government needs to put in place to achieve its target of eradicating corruption in the system?
It is a whole lot. It is not just about arresting people; there must be total re-orientation. Nigerians have to change their orientation. We must all believe that this corruption thing is killing us in installment. The day an average person on street appreciate that when a road contract is inflated, it has tendency to cause damage to his family, the will we start to get there. But if we just see it as government’s fight, we have missed it. We must also take the battle to our young stars. Our professional bodies must also buy into the war. If you are an engineer, you must make up your mind that you are not going to bribe to get contract. If you are accountant, you are not going to audit an account
There is a long list of high profile cases that have not been concluded and many of those allegedly indicated are still walking freely on the street. Why is it so?
They will be walking freely because you are going back to the issue of investigation. In most cases, allegations are made and blown in the media. And people don’t ask critical questions. We should ask critical questions. You say somebody stole N20 billion. What was his source? What is the total money in that department? May be the total budget of his department is not even up to N1 billion. So, the man will walk freely if he has done nothing wrong. I give you an example. Years ago, EFCC charged some officials of Zamfara State Government to court, the SSG and some commissioners. The SSG by their own system was living in his own house. So, he was entitled to certain basic thingsgenerator, furniture and things like that. EFCC charged the man to court for stealing the generator. They ordered agricultural equipment and implements tractors and things like that and were supplied on paper.
But EFCC charged the officials for stealing the money with which those things were procured. Of course, those charges couldn’t stand. But the names of those individuals have been smeared in the press. That is the kind of the things we are talking about. We have to dissect these issues properly. For me, I don’t feel good that those who are corrupt are enjoying freedom.
The view I have held for more than 20 years ago is that those who are found guilty of corruption should be given Chinese treatment with death penalty. It doesn’t matter to me the way it is carried out. And I am happy that the NLC and TUC have seen my point of view at the long last. It is not anything novel that I have proposed. This is something I have remained consistent with for more than 20 years.
In all my lectures, I have always maintained that death should be the penalty for corruption because of the endemic nature of it and the impunity with which people do it.